Episode 209 : Alice Chen On Phonebanking & The 2020 Election

Featured Guest: Alice Chen

  • Oct 21, 2020

“We are affirming to a complete stranger that their voice matters”

Dr. Alice Chen is an Internal Medicine physician, the former executive director of Doctors For America, and one of the leaders of Doctors For Biden. She joins us in the stretch run of the 2020 election to discuss the shift in mindset among American doctors around politics. We also discuss the critical impact and sense of satisfaction to be had with phonebanking to help drive change.

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Sponsor: Elevate your expertise with Creighton University’s Healthcare Executive Educational programming. Learn more about Creighton’s Executive MBA and Executive Fellowship programs at www.creighton.edu/CHEE.

Key Learnings

1. How Dr. Chen became politically engaged as a physician

2. Signing a letter

3. Differences between physician engagement with politics between 2008 and 2020

4. What is phonebanking?

5. The impact a doctor can have when they share their profession when making calls

6. Orienting and getting started

7. The current state of voter activation and the rise of medical students and early career physicians in this work


@DoctorsForBiden on Twitter and IG

Phonebanking with Doctors For Biden


Mark Shapiro (00:01):

Welcome back to Explore The Space Podcast. I’m your host Mark Shapiro. Before we get to today’s episode, a thank you to Laurie Baedke and Creighton University for sponsoring this episode, Creighton University believes in equipping physicians for success in the exam room, the operating room and the boardroom. If you want to increase your business acumen, deepen your leadership knowledge and earn your seat at the table. Creighton’s healthcare executive education is for you. Specifically tailored to busy physicians our hybrid programs blend the richness of on-campus residencies with the flexibility of online learning. Earn a Creighton university executive MBA degree in 18 months, or complete the non-degree executive fellowship in six months, visit www.creighton.edu/CHEE to learn more. My guest in this episode is Dr. Alice Chen. Dr. Chen is an internal medicine physician.

Mark Shapiro (00:53):

She is former executive director of Doctors for America, and she is now one of the leaders of Doctors for Biden. She joins us in the stretch run of the 2020 election to discuss a really important shift that’s occurring in the mindset of American medical students, doctors, healthcare professionals, all around the country, around this idea of engaging in the political process. And we also discussed the critical impact and the sense of satisfaction to be had with a whole variety of tangible things that you can do to drive towards change the biggest one at this point in the election being phone banking, which is a really interesting topic. It’s a really interesting subject, and she really helps step through some of the barriers that people can come up with to not participate in phone banking, as well as all the great reasons to jump in. If you have some free time leading up to the presidential election, definitely take the opportunity to check out the events page on the Doctors for Biden website.

Mark Shapiro (01:47):

There are phone banking opportunities every single day. So definitely take advantage of that before we get to our conversation. We’ll want to just invite everyone to please subscribe to and rate and review, explore the space podcast on Apple podcasts or wherever you’d like to download your shows. That really helps us out. You can email me any time [email protected] Definitely check out the archive of Explore The Space Podcast at www.explorethespaceshow.com and you can follow me on Twitter at @ETSshow. As I said before, we are coming down the stretch, there are lots of things people can do to engage around activating voters and driving towards change in America. As we come up to election day, it’s just a few weeks away now, Dr. Chen gives us some really tangible, actionable things we can be doing. This was a fantastic conversation. You’re going to really enjoy it. So without further ado, Dr. Alice Chen

Alice, welcome to Explore The Space. I’m excited that you’re here

Alice Chen (02:47):

So excited to be here, Mark.

Mark Shapiro (02:50):

We are 15 days away and by the time this episode goes up, it’ll be a little closer. We’re 15 days away. It’s funny. I can say that and you can hear, and all of the listeners will hear it and they will know exactly what I’m referring to.

Speaker 3 (03:05):

Nobody’s here.

Mark Shapiro (03:06):

Nobody’s got, so obviously we’re, we’re referring to election day and we’re, you know, there there’s a whole host of things I’m in California and there’s a wide variety of, of interesting propositions and ballot measures and such things. And there’s Senate races and down ticket races and all that good stuff. I know it’s the same for you on the East coast, but we’re, we’re here to focus more on the presidential election. Does that sound about right? Absolutely. All right. So you are one of those rare doctors, I would say, and I hope that you don’t stay rare. And I don’t think that you will remain rare, but you are a physician who is as well-trained, as anybody who went through all of the same principles and practices of how we train physicians in America. And at the same time, you are an activated physician. You are engaged from a social aspect and you are engaged from a political aspect. I D I still think that it’s rare, but when I characterize it as rare for an American physician to be as engaged as you are, am I right?

Speaker 3 (04:11):

You are right. Although it is changing. And I have seen a shifting over the past decade or so.

Mark Shapiro (04:17):

So then we come to where we are now, and you are doing close work with an organization that I’ve been really fortunate to participate in a number of activities with Doctors for Biden. And I’m really curious to get a sense for you of how you came to the place where you do all the same training that we’ve done. You’ve heard all of the same implicit and explicit messages about doctors and politics. And now you are doing work on behalf of a candidate on behalf of a vice president Biden. What does that progression feel like?

Speaker 3 (04:49):

You know, it’s funny, I certainly didn’t set out to be a, like a quote unquote political doctor, and it wasn’t anywhere in my training. I was just like any other doctor working in this system and, and just encountering patient after patient, after patient who, you know, I had all of this, like top notch, world-class medical knowledge and equipment and cons consults and everything at my fingertips. And yet I’d have this patient who came in for heart failure again, because his only grocery store is the, is the, is the the gas station down the street and he’s eating canned food. And that’s why he’s back in the hospital with heart failure. They’re just, it was just so frustrating to me that there were so many patients that I couldn’t help either because of the social situation or because they couldn’t get health insurance, or they had had health insurance that didn’t cover the things that they needed.

Speaker 3 (05:39):

And, you know, I didn’t, I knew that there were forces at play in far away places like Washington, DC that were making it harder for me, for me to take care of my patients, but I really felt like I don’t have any power over those people. I don’t have like muddied interest. I’m not like a billionaire, I’m just a doc trying to put my head down and, and, and do what I can for my patients. But then in 2008, I had just become an attending. And I, and I had more free time than I had it as a resident. And it was a presidential election that I was very inspired by. And I found myself there calling voters and knocking on doors. And the next thing I knew, I ran into this organization that was then called Doctors for Obama. And I discovered there were thousands of doctors and medical students just like me.

Speaker 3 (06:23):

And they were just like me. They’re also like deans and people who are very accomplished in the field who were suddenly standing up and saying, Hey, we need a better healthcare system. And we’re going to put our names on a letter and say, so, and, and get involved in an election. I thought, wow, that is crazy. But I joined up and that was my first my first taste of, wow, wait as a doctor, we do, we do that. We have the power of doing something and, and, and, and in powerful places that, that I don’t understand. And then from there, it just kind of progressed. I ended up, we ended up creating an organization called doctors for America. And I, you know, went from a sort of a, a low level volunteer to running the whole organization for many years. And then when this year came around and, you know, the presidential election is happening, COVID is happening. It feels like the entire world is resting on this election. It was kind of obvious that we needed to rally doctors, whether they were politically engaged or otherwise doctors who are just mad about what’s going on in the world and channel that energy toward the election.

Mark Shapiro (07:27):

I remember hearing about Doctors for Obama. I remember hearing about Doctors for America, my whole life I’ve been engaged in the political process. I’ve found it fascinating. I’ve loved to learn from it. I’ve always voted all of those sorts of things. And I’ve always had that barrier that I gathered as a medical student, as a resident that Mark you don’t join things like that as, as, as politically engaged and attached as you are. That’s not where you go. You get in trouble. If you do that, don’t, don’t, don’t I regret it. I’ll be totally honest with you. I wish that I had done things differently, but I know, I know what I know now. And we know we, we just couldn’t, we just kind of commit to trying to get better, but it was just really interesting to hear you name those organizations and that you were able to participate in them. Right. I became an attending in Oh six. So my, my kind of process of evolution as an attending, it’s very similar to yours. And for me, it was, Nope, you don’t do that. You’ll get in trouble that dah, dah, dah. And it’s, it’s just really interesting to reflect back on that as I hear the road that you’ve walked,

Speaker 3 (08:26):

You know, I was lucky in that I just signed a letter online, right. Like a little bit

Mark Shapiro (08:32):

For sure. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (08:35):

But the next thing I knew, I was, I met all these other people who are also like, just feeling like, Ooh, is this something we do? And there were a few people who were like, yeah, I’m putting on my white coat and I’m standing on a street corner. And I was like, what you’re doing? What? But being in that community of people who were all like, okay, we’re going to jump together and suffer the consequences together. That was part of what gave me the, and the permission to do it.

Mark Shapiro (08:57):

It’s so cool. And I love that you said that there’s that sort of permission to do it because I had to kind of do that, that same mental gymnastics over the last like year, just kind of asking myself permission, which is so strange, right? I’m a, I’m a mid career attending now. Like I finished residency, you know, six, and I’m still having that cognitive dissonance of like, I’m gonna get in trouble, get in trouble, but that’s the problem. Right. And so having that community to sort of land with and, and move through that. And that’s one of the things that I really like and appreciate about doctors for Biden is it’s a very open landscape. And, you know, when, when Joe saccharin, who also helped really build it, he came on the show a few a week or so ago. And we talked about this, even though the names has doctors for Biden, it is really designed to be an open landscape for anyone that just feels like they have something to say or want that sense of community that you described.

Speaker 3 (09:44):

Exactly. Exactly.

Mark Shapiro (09:46):

So then in terms of that activation, and in terms of bringing people in, and as we started the conversation with this idea of doctors becoming more activated, are you seeing a change comparing it to Oh eight? What are the, just off the top of your head, the biggest changes that you’ve seen, the biggest differences that you’ve seen?

Speaker 3 (10:05):

So a few things one is that I think there are many more doctors who are a bit more bold because they’ve seen other people doing this, or they have done political things themselves for, for, for a few years, or maybe it’s a year, maybe it’s a month. But they, they, there’s a little bit more of a community and a track record. And so I’m seeing people who are feeling more emboldened to go out there and write their letters to the editor and their op-eds. I’m seeing that there are there, there’s more savviness of understanding, okay, this is how we move the system. These are the ways that we move the dial. You know, the other pieces is, is, is a product of the, of the year that we’re in is that I am seeing a lot of, for lack of a better word, a sense of desperation. Honestly,

Mark Shapiro (10:49):

That’s a fair term. I’m perfectly comfortable hearing you use that term. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (10:53):

That people are. And especially, I mean, you hear from like, you know, the doctor in Wisconsin a week or two ago, who said, we’re out of dialysis, you know, of, of dialysis spots, our ICUs are full. We are shipping people off to another hospital because we don’t have any more space for all of these COVID patients. I mean, there’s, there’s a level of anxiety and like, I will do absolutely anything I need to do to, to make sure the right person wins this election. That feels very different from any prior year that I’ve been involved with.

Mark Shapiro (11:23):

I remember seeing that, that tweet as well. I thought that’s where I saw it. At least it was on Twitter. And so it’s interesting that that’s been sort of what you are experiencing that draws people in, but then is there a tension where I acknowledging that physicians for the most part, carry a mantle of leadership? Is there a challenge in just sort of getting people to step in and grind and be told, just go here, click there, do this for the next hour, as opposed to being the one to the other people to go and do it.

Speaker 3 (11:55):

It’s funny because there are some people who want to just like, sort of be, be on top of, for the most part, doctors are really busy, right? Like I have half an hour, like give me something like that’s like going to be effective to do. So there’s an element of that as well. And because of that, like level of desperation, people are like, I will do anything. Like I will, I will like sweep the floors. I like just, just give me something that will be useful to do. And it just put me in.

Mark Shapiro (12:23):

So then we get to this part, right of somebody has a half an hour. Somebody has a half day, somebody has a chunk of time and they want to do something out, whether it’s out of sense of purpose, sense of desperation, whatever that’s going to feel meaningful. One of the things that you and I spoke about a little bit before we started recording, and then the reason I emailed you in the first place, one of the things that doctors for Biden has done has created a very easy and user friendly space for people to take a small amount of time and do some phone banking. Can you explain first, just so that we make sure everyone has shared understanding what is phone banking?

Speaker 3 (12:59):

Sure. So phone banking is basically calling up voters and it’s mainly voters in swing States and, and, and helping to get them to vote for your candidate or your issue of choice. It it, it seems, it sounds a little scary. And certainly I was terrified of it went back in, back in Oh eight. I remember I had signed up for for, for the Obama listserv and, and they just kept sending out all these calls, like come hang, phone bank with us, come call voters, come call voters. And I was like, no way, there’s no, give me something else to do anything else. I know one day, one day they were like, I was in LA at the time and they said, okay, you guys we need people to drive to Nevada and knock on doors there. And I was like, sign me up, sign me up. I will not. So I ended up going to Nevada and I drove these like random people in a carpool with me. And they were like, wait, you don’t phone bank, but you’re driving to Nevada to knock on strange people’s doors. And I was like, okay. They’re like, you need to go to a phone bank, come with us. We will phone back when we get back to California. And I was like, okay. And, and it kinda stuck. I got kind of hooked on the, on on, on talking to voters. So

Mark Shapiro (14:12):

Hooked you about it. So for someone who’s hearing this as well, understanding themselves, no way, not a chance as not for me. What is that hook? What, what brings you in

Speaker 3 (14:23):

Well, so, so when you phone bank, so, so, so the way, I mean, especially right now, like the, the technology has advanced to a point where they have these like bots that will dial phone numbers for you dial, dial, dial until you had a real person that goes Bing. And then somebody says, hello, and you say, hello, you have conversation. I put on my like, super cheery, like, hi, I’m Alice, I’m a doctor. And I’m volunteering with this campaign. I really want to talk to you. That’s awesome.

Mark Shapiro (14:52):

So you, but you share with them off the top that you’re a doctor. I do. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (14:58):

It could be. Cause I don’t want them to hang up on me. And I think that like, there might be like a small chance that they’re less likely to hang up if I say it

Mark Shapiro (15:05):

You’re right. I think people would be delighted to get a phone call from a doctor.

Speaker 3 (15:11):

Indeed. Indeed. Well, I hope so.

Mark Shapiro (15:14):

And then what happens from there is it, do you have a certain amount of time? Do you take all the time? You want it cause right. It’s, it’s sort of an interesting parallel to what you and I do as hospitalists. Right? We, we make rounds, we chat with people. Sometimes we have plenty of time. Sometimes we don’t have very much, sometimes they may not want to see us. Sometimes they’re busy and we have to come back. How does that sort of rhythm work,

Speaker 3 (15:35):

Funniest, settle. And most of the calls that you get, you get patched through to like, somebody will hang up even before you say hello or they, you know, you say, hi, I’m with them. They’re like, Oh, no more phone calls by. And then you get that like one call or if someone’s like, Oh, hi, sure. I want to talk to you. And then you like talk somebody into becoming a volunteer or you walk them through like how they submit their ballot and that you get this like high and you’re like, I need to get another one of those. Interesting. So, so, so, so it’s like, it’s a little bit, I mean, speaking of, of, of going in Nevada in Vegas, it’s a little bit like slot machine. Like

Mark Shapiro (16:09):

You get that dopamine hit and you just want more.

Speaker 3 (16:11):

Exactly. And what’s fun is and you mentioned doctors for bide and having these phone banks, the phone bank is basically we getting together, you know, we used to be like in person. And now we’re doing it over zoom and basically you’re with a whole bunch of other people, so we can pool our experiences. So we’re all on zoom, we’re all doing our calls. And then you see like, you’re like, Oh, I’ve gotten another hangup. And then you still see somebody chat that, like, I just convinced somebody to over buy it. And you’re like, I’m doing more calls.

Mark Shapiro (16:40):

That’s amazing. That is really, really cool. And then when someone wants to participate in something like this, is there a minimum time they need to be able to commit.

Speaker 3 (16:52):

I mean, I’d say like, you know, probably the bare bare minimum is like 15 minutes. You put in a chunk of time so that you feel like, kind of got, gotta got a good call and okay.

Mark Shapiro (17:03):

Foothold, because you guys have an orientation session first and that’s like 15, 20 minutes, but that’s a one off.

Speaker 3 (17:09):

Yes, yes. There’s a one off session just to orient you to, how do you, how do you, how does the dialer work had you marked the survey to show that somebody is a, you know, what, what, how they’re voting how do you get to the next call? How do you, you know, the, the, the basics of like, be polite, be nice, be respectful. There was a little bit of that training, but once you’ve been trained, you can call during a phone bank, you can call on your own time, as long as it’s within the hours, when people are are awake and the phone banks are open, you can kind of, you can, you can do it, you can do it on your own if you want.

Mark Shapiro (17:42):

Okay. Gotcha. The question that I’ve been asked the most about this is people just have this sense of if they’re phone banking, their own number that they’re calling from, you know, their computer ID or their cell phone number will be accessible to the person that they’re calling. But it definitely feels like, as you said, the technology is way better than it used to be. That that is no longer the same level of concern.

Speaker 3 (18:06):

Exactly, exactly. I mean, I still remember back in 08, like just like reams of paper and these like lists of like phone numbers and dialing one number at a time I’m trying to remember does do star 67. Yeah. But now the system, basically you use your phone just for the audio, but it hooks into their system. It’s the campaign’s phone number is the callback number. So, I mean, you don’t even have to use your real name if, you know, for some reason you, you, you, you don’t, you know, you do, you’d rather use a pseudonym to, to, to make your call. And yeah. So nobody can get ahold of you off of your phone number. They don’t know where you are. And yeah, you’re just, you’re just calling people.

Mark Shapiro (18:45):

This might sound like naive or like overly romanticizing the concept, but it just, it does still feel to me that there’s this sort of unique Americanness to that, that you’re just reaching out to connect with another sort of fellow American to see where they are and to see if you can have a few minutes of their time and maybe guide some decisions together.

Speaker 3 (19:04):

It is. And it is, it feels like a, you know, for all the money and politics and all of us that are like left of policy.

Mark Shapiro (19:14):

Perfect. Yes, totally.

Speaker 3 (19:18):

Is that like sound like person to person, like just another person in this country who wants like better. Yeah. Just want better. And, and it’s interesting because, you know, unlike, I think some, like, I mean, I, sometimes people like, Oh, I’m like bothering people and like, you know, truth be told, some people in these swing States are getting called like all day long. So there’s a little bit annoying, but like, you know, we’re, we are affirming to a complete stranger that their voice matters that, you know, Victor’s voice in like, you know, Miami matters to me that, you know, Shannon’s voice in, like in Virginia matters to me. And there, you know, I’ve gotten a lot of people who have said, like, I’m just like, thank you so much for calling. And, and, you know, even if it’s somebody who is already a supporter and they’re already going to vote, like I know that that phone call will nudge them to remind one more person to vote or will make them like, like more likely to like put in that ballot like one day earlier. And like every little, like every little inch that we can move makes a difference because all of us added together. That’s how you win the election.

Mark Shapiro (20:25):

No, absolutely. And now as we’re approaching, right, everyone keeps saying, we’re coming down the stretch, we’re coming down the stretch. It does sort of feel like we’re getting there. I mean, we’re, we’re going to be, you know, inside of two weeks away from the election, what is your take on the energy level and enthusiasm for people who are doing this sort of work, making phone calls, sending postcards, doing voter activation.

Speaker 3 (20:45):

It is so high. So

Mark Shapiro (20:48):

High, Holy smokes.

Speaker 3 (20:50):

Oh, high, like through the roof high. I mean, I saw, I saw another person on Twitter who, who had like 4,000 postcards. And she said, if I don’t get a promotion this year, this is why I don’t get my research grants. Like, this is why that’s awesome.

Mark Shapiro (21:04):

That should be on a tee shirt. Huh?

Speaker 3 (21:06):

I think she tweeted it from her lab’s Twitter account too.

Mark Shapiro (21:10):

So great. It’s interesting though, too, because I think that there’s this, all of this stuff, right. Which you just described and what I’m seeing, it’s going to leave a legacy regardless of how this election comes out. And I mean, I’ve openly endorsed vice president Biden. I’ve already cast my ballot. And obviously I’m part of doctors for Biden and we’re talking about this. So it’s pretty clear which way we’re leaning in this election. But I do think though in 2022, in the midterm election, 2024 and going forward, I think that things will be different. And I say that for a number of reasons, but the biggest one is the place where I see unbelievable energy is in the students, the undergrads and the medical students, and then the residents. It didn’t exist when I was a medical student or a resident. I mean, it was a few people doing a little bit. This is a whole different sport now.

Speaker 3 (21:57):

Totally. I mean, I don’t remember a single person doing anything in Oh four when I was in medicine. I certainly did nothing. I voted that’s it? Yep. This is, this is, I mean, I, I just heard that yesterday, there are 60 med students in Michigan, Horace signed up to be poll workers. Amazing, amazing,

Mark Shapiro (22:14):

Amazing. That just, that would never have happened where I went to medical school. It was just not on and not again, it’s implicit and explicit messaging. It just wasn’t, it just wasn’t an option. It just wasn’t there. It was there. It just wasn’t transparent where it was, you know, or accessible in a way that was felt to be okay.

Speaker 3 (22:33):

Right. It wasn’t, it’s not what you do. Like back when we were med students like that, wasn’t what you do. But now it’s being, I mean, advocacy is part of the curriculum is part of the Ironman for some residency programs. We’re definitely seeing a pretty significant change. And I think it’s because, I mean, so many of us have realized, you know, whether it’s young doctors or our senior senior doctors have realized that like this system is not going to change with us or sitting on the outside being like, this is terrible. Yeah. To be involved. Yeah.

Mark Shapiro (23:03):

No, I think that that’s very well said. And I think that that fundamental message certainly resonates. So as we move forward, these last few weeks, people hear this, they get fired up, they get over the, whatever, whatever the barrier may be around phone banking or writing letters or any component of voter activation, how do they access these resources through doctors for Biden?

Speaker 3 (23:23):

Sure. So I definitely encourage every single person who’s listening to this to sign up for a phone bank. You just try it once. You don’t want to get to know November 3rd, fourth, whatever day we find out what the results are and think, gosh, I didn’t, I didn’t do everything I could have. So please, please, please try it once. And you know, for us to join one of the doctors for, for Biden or one of our affiliated phone banks, it’s, it’s easy. You go to our website, it’s www.docsforbiden.com/events. And we have phone banks basically every day that you can be a part of. We have phone banks for medical students. We have phone banks with a bunch of health policy, people with other healthcare workers. It’s just the, the doctors for Biden, join, join a phone bank. You don’t, they’re usually two hours or an hour and a half. You don’t have to stay for the whole time. Just join for some of the comradery. You will meet other people who are exactly like we’re there. They’re very few people who are like, I love phone banking.

Speaker 3 (24:28):

I must do this because like, this is what one has to do to win an election. And like, here I am, I’m kind of scared. I don’t like, I almost didn’t show up on this call, but here I am. And then like an hour later you’ve made, you know, a bajillion calls together. So just try it. It is, it is so great. And it will make you feel so much better. Like I sleep so much better on the days when I phone banked or I’ve text banked, I’ve done like some voter outreach. I, I definitely go to bed earlier and check my check all the polling sites one last time, because I feel like, okay, I’ve done my work.

Mark Shapiro (25:02):

You’re so locked in. I just love it. It’s so inspiring. And then if people we’ve talked to you about a little bit about Twitter, where do they access the stuff? If they like Twitter, if they enjoy social media, which so that’s everybody, or at least they’re on social media, whether they enjoy it or not. It’s a different question. How do they access doctors for Biden?

Speaker 3 (25:18):

So we are on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram, our handle on all three is @DoctorsForBiden. And we’re also using the hashtag #votehealth. So those are ways to see it is, it is really fun to just watch that hashtag and it has been blowing out the number of doctors and other healthcare professionals who are using the hashtag. And just saying like, I am here, I’m standing up. It’s it is, it is, it is one of the things that gets me going every day thinking like, okay, I’m going to do one more thing. Cause look at all these other people, they’re all, they’re all doing the things I’m going to do it too.

Mark Shapiro (25:52):

It’s really tremendous. I’m appreciative that you have been one of those people for me to help get me going into kind of bring, explore the space podcast into all of this work. It’s, it’s exciting. And it’s invigorating. This is important. These are, these are momentous times. We’re all gonna reminisce about what we were doing during these extraordinary months. So for all that you’re doing and for helping get us down the stretch. Alice, thank you so much.

Speaker 3 (26:16):

Thank you so much for having me.

Mark Shapiro (26:19):

My thanks once again to Dr. Chen for coming on this episode of Explore The Space and thank you again to Laurie Baedke and Creighton University for sponsoring this episode, learn more about Creighton’s executive MBA and executive fellowship [email protected]/CHEE. And thanks to you for listening to this episode. These are critical times. These are extraordinary days and we will discuss them and reminisce about what we did in this amazing period in the year 2020 don’t waste a moment take advantage of the opportunities that are in front of you to drive towards change. Whether it’s phone banking, writing postcards, talking with friends, neighbors, and colleagues, to make sure that they have a voting plan. And of course, making sure that you vote. It’s all important. It’s all valuable. Thank you so much for being so engaged and for helping to do this work with us, make sure you wear your masks. Make sure you wash your hands, maintain physical distancing, take care of yourselves, get your flu shots. We will see you soon with more great content on Explore The Space Podcast until then, bye bye.

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